Thoughts about a better option than discontinuing FreeBSD on DirectAdmin

IT_Architect

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I "get it" that FreeBSD doesn't keep the lights on at JBMC, in fact they could make the case it dims the lights. One might also make the case a year ago that CENTOS with extended support will be here forever. I noticed the poll taken last year when the lights went out at CENTOS that ~5% said they would be moving for FreeBSD. Other software says we don't officially support FreeBSD but then you find shims at GITHUB with everything your need to make it work. DirectAdmin has an investment now and I can't help but wonder if there is a way to leverage that for FreeBSD and perhaps some Linux distros they don't want to maintain or up-and-comers that don't have the volume yet, but will have. If the volume does kick in, DirectAdmin still has the option to adopt them and go forward with their current licensing model. Part of the problem is probably guys like me who have been with DirectAdmin since George Washington was president and have permanent licenses.

The C Language made it simply because if you needed an operating system for a new processor, if you write a C compiler for the processor, UNIX was there for you. Maybe DirectAdmin could be that for control panels.

Strictly from a FreeBSD perspective, there is something attractive about an OS that can be upgraded easily from version to version like Windows, and where stability and well-thought-out is religion.
 
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Yes because Cloudlinux supports it, which a lot of hosters out there use it and it's 100% Centos compatible, which should mean stable.
Next to that, it's nice to have GitHub, but Github is not like your stable source for applications which are not supporting your OS themselfves.

So you would be working with 3rd party things (GitHub solutions) to fix things which applications do not support themselves anymore. That is always a risk. I don't think DA would take that for the few customers who would like to stay with FreeBSD. Especially since they were the only big professional panel which still supported it.

And there is also Debian and Rocky which got 7 times more the amount of votes FreeBSD got.
Being realistic..... This 4,8% is nothing... it's in fact only 2 users.... looking at the amount of customers of DA and looking at these percentages with a bit more reality, FreeBSD will never be back for sure. Not even with the help of Github.

about an OS that can be upgraded easily from version to version like Windows
You shouldn't compare Windows with Linux, it's apples and pears. But Debian could do this for a long time already for example.
 
Yes because Cloudlinux supports it, which a lot of hosters out there use it and it's 100% Centos compatible, which should mean stable.
Next to that, it's nice to have GitHub, but Github is not like your stable source for applications which are not supporting your OS themselves.

So you would be working with 3rd party things (GitHub solutions) to fix things which applications do not support themselves anymore. That is always a risk. I don't think DA would take that for the few customers who would like to stay with FreeBSD. Especially since they were the only big professional panel which still supported it.

And there is also Debian and Rocky which got 7 times more the amount of votes FreeBSD got.
Being realistic..... This 4,8% is nothing... it's in fact only 2 users.... looking at the amount of customers of DA and looking at these percentages with a bit more reality, FreeBSD will never be back for sure. Not even with the help of Github.


You shouldn't compare Windows with Linux, it's apples and pears. But Debian could do this for a long time already for example.
I understand your perspective and I share some of them. FreeBSD doesn't need apps for the OS anymore than Linux does. A lot of the apps for both FreeBSD and Linux come from open source projects, MySQL and PHP to list a couple. For a groups to integrated it into DirectAdmin would no different than is happening now with more complex apps.

You shouldn't compare Windows with Linux, it's apples and pears. But Debian could do this for a long time already for example.
Comparing Windows to Linux is perfectly apples-to-apples. They are both web servers, servers, and desktops. Windows may have been purchased with the computer, but when is the last time you paid for an upgrade? I have never worked with Debian, but are you saying that it can go from one major upgrade to the next like the much more complex Windows does?
 
Comparing Windows to Linux is perfectly apples-to-apples.
No it's not. As you know it's a totally different OS, totally different structure, different permission options, it's apples and pears. What you're doing is comparing applications and hardware, because that's what webservers and desktops are. And even apache was developped for Linux at first.
Linux is a lot safer then Windows due to the way they work with users. It took a very long time before Windows acknowledged that and is working a little bit the same way. I don't even want to start that discussion. Maybe with NT they did.
But I've seen many more Windows bugs and issues then I've ever seen for Linux. Where indeed stability and safety is a religion. As for the user OS versions. Windows has often a very odd religion.

but when is the last time you paid for an upgrade?
That has nothing to do with anything, if somethings is paid or not. But if you want to know, in december 2017 when I bought my last PC. Because you need to buy Windows every time you buy a new PC. If you want to compare that to Linux.... When have I ever paid for Linux? Well..... never.
Those are no comparisons about the working of an OS.

that it can go from one major upgrade to the next like the much more complex Windows does?
Since when can Windows do that? Really... since Windows 7. Without having to put a CD/DVD in. So that is not so special about Windows.
Yes Debian can do that. For a longer time then Windows ever did.
 
Yes Debian can do that
That's good to know about Debian.

...simply because ?NIX is less capable does not make it apples and pears. They are both file servers, web servers, and app servers. The Windows API drives far more capable apps makes them much simpler to develop and debug, and its superior network-based security are what make it the standard for businesses large and small, desktop and server. Paying for big-bucks for Windows Servers is far cheaper and more capable than free ?NIX, which is the only reason they are in the position they are. If a CIO bought it just because it was Windows and he was trained in it, he would get fired. Companies only care about if it delivers and the overall cost. The only place ?NIX has been able to carve out is web servers and database servers, and Windows is heavy in those areas as well.
 
...simply because ?NIX is less capable does not make it apples and pears.
Less capable with what? Never mind, I don't even want to have a discussion about that. First work with Linux as much as you did with Windows. before stating your opinion that Windows is superior in almost everyting.
I don't do Windows bashing, I don't like people doing Linux bashing either.
 
Free enterprise decides winners and losers based on which provides the overall best performance/price. When you are CIO the CFO always wants to know why you aren't using free software. As CIO the answer is because free is much more expensive. Then you roll it out in his department where it proves your position that spending $76,000 a year for Office is a bargain and I justify my budget. Were that not the case, training would be on the free software.

Several things decided thee FreeBSD and Linux market share. UNIX was for geeks and Linux was the new way to draw attention to yourself as an expert. BSD was in a huge legal fray for years which enabled Linux to grow while the Internet was growing and put pressure on people to make it real. People saw the BSD case which dragged on for years to be baseless. During that time Linux grew as the only alternative. Then Linux wound up in a huge legal fray and everyone was going to be sued by SCO. SCO sold a lot of licenses to prevent from being sued. Novell said they would exonerate anyone sued by SCO. Then SCO sued Novell for course. Then AutoZone, who uses Linux on their terminals refused to pay SCO after which SCO decided to make them a poster child. I wondered how SCO had the guts to do that because Novell had a license with traceable ancestry and SCO was claiming parts that was theirs. SCO would open themselves up to suit by many software developers for damages and I couldn't imagine stockholders going along with something like this unless they were pretty certain. While there was a degree a skepticism after what happened in the BSD case, many business paid for SCO licenses and SCO's business and worth went through the roof. When the claims were examined in the Novell case, it was determine that not only was Novell was the rightful owner of the code, but also that SCO had no rights to the code they had been using. IBM could also be sued by Novell but Novell waived their claims against IBM, who was a partner with them by that time. Novell also stated publicly they had no interest in suing people over any Unix code in Linux and they owned the code and could do as they pleased. Then Novell counter sued SCO for selling their software, along with every other software vendor suing SCO for not paying them when they sold the licenses, plus interest, plus loss of business by undermining Linux. SCO had also sold some IBM code from AIX. The only way that SCO could have gone that poorly against those who sued them after the Novell case is if it was determined deliberate fraud was involved. IBM, SUN SGI, and others were ?NIX shops that weren't going anywhere so they jumped on the Linux bandwagon and donated code. The Linux world was the wild-wild West for quite a while. Novell bought SUSE WordPerfect, Lotus, and all of the apps to put Linux on the desktop and failed. After massive efforts by Novell and IBM and putting together the best of the office suites back then to take the enterprise from Microsoft. Linus stated that Novell was the best thing to ever happen to Linux. While they never even came close because it just doesn't have the technology, a lot of hardware drivers were written. It was good for the entire ?NIX world, including the Apple. It was a free OS that could be tailored so in college you could use it for mechanical engineering automation projects. Some say that VMware is based on Linux but that is totally false. HOWEVER, they did use it as an interface with ESX, before ESXi, AND it uses the Linux API interface design for drivers to make it easy to port drivers to VMware.

When I was using Linux before, it would fall over every time under load. This is why Linux was not used by the big hosting companies like The Planet, iPower, nor as database servers, nor used by banks in SAVVIS. Then is when I ended up on FreeBSD and I'd guess most of the guys that BOUGHT FreeBSD licenses for DirectAdmin had similar experience during the same time frame. Much of the mean time Linux was the wild-wild west every kid having his own version and it being Mickey Mouse. FreeBSD had Ports. However, today, for all intents and purposes, there are only two, Red Hat, and Debian. I'm guessing Linux will handle the loads fine these days, so far I've been happy with dnf, impressed with, FreeBSD support life cycles have gotten a lot shorter, and much of the reason for needing FreeBSD may no longer exist.
 
That was the early days. But as said. I won't do a Linux <-> Windows discussion and that's not because I would win, or very maybe loose, but I just don't like it.
 
Just as Windows dominates the desktop and business servers on its merits, Linux dominates the shared hosting on its merits since free enterprise is unforgiving and does not allow otherwise. On the other hand, if it were not so unforgiving, we would all still be farmers. The richest people in the world are the most underpaid when you think of what Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. has done. Irrespective of historical events that occurred that happened to have played in Linux's favor, if it had not achieved near parity during that period, free enterprise would sent shared hosting flying back to FreeBSD.

I'm just hoping it stands up for us shared hosting is not how we make money on the web. The shared hosing is something tacked on to our servers like a fly on a camel's back that our customers asked us to do because we understand the special requirements of manufacturing, tooling, and engineering and they don't mind paying several times what shared hosting normally costs to not deal with it. For us it's about being found and searches. For them, it's about NOT being found except by their own customers.
 
I understand why they drop FreeBSD from the support list - they invest a lot in patching the software and keeping the code in the build script and it does not pay off.

It was a design problem to start from. FreeBSD's major strength is the ports/packages collection - it's super stable and well maintained. Usually itself alone it is a reason to choose FreeBSD instead of any other Linux distro. Well, DA actually is not using it. So they have to redo all the work that the FreeBSD port maintainers are doing anyway - many custom patches and many conflict resolvings needs to be redone. And when doing such custom installations, it's ocasionally conflicting with port installations (which happens from time to time and it's frustrating). That's definitely a bad design from the beginning. But I understand them here too - they did not want to make a complete new software for FreeBSD only (which is even bigger investment!), but they wanted to adapt the existing DA for FreeBSD.

Next thing was the bad reputation. We had numerous issues which we fix with workarounds for ages. Yes, once installed, DA on FreeBSD is SUPER STABLE, but... go try to install it in first place. I did it three times and it was always a challenge. You run the setup and it cannot compile something. You fix it and it stops on another thing. And you always start from the beginning. Not nice and frustrating! And of course later on the design which I mentioned above was failure-proof. You cannot install PHP8 because it's not patched properly, you can't install MariaDB because you must disable some storage engines manually, etc. It lots of custom work. And unexperienced people run away from such hassle. How can you convince somebody that something is very stable and bullet proof when... you struggle to start it in first place...

That's why DA on FreeBSD faded and finally failed. I am sad. But I can't blame JBMC. Money first!
 
It was a design problem to start from.

And this is why foresight is so important.

If DirectAdmin had never started supporting FreeBSD, we wouldn't have this problem.

I'd really prefer it if DirectAdmin would support just one Linux distribution variant. Having to support multiple operating systems takes away development (and more importantly testing) time for all of that support. Trimming your focus list down to a manageable list means that you can be more efficient in what you offer.
 
Because you need to buy Windows every time you buy a new PC.
That's not exactly true. The last version of Windows I purchased was Windows 7 Pro back around 2010. I've built two more PCs since then and each time I start with the same disc EXCEPT my last build which was last year. I started with Windows 10 downloaded, then upgraded recently to Windows 11 Pro - all quite seamlessly. I know you're not saying this Richard, but if anyone things Windows upgrades are not free or are difficult, then their experience goes back at least ten years.
 
start with the same disc EXCEPT my last build which was last year.
Then I'm already thinking you either had bought a real retail version (which most people don't) or using the grey method (not really legal) in some way.

I never said (nore did anyone else as far as I remember) Windows upgrade are or would be difficult. However it_architect was also talking about the past so I replied to that.

but if anyone things Windows upgrades are not free or are difficult, then their experience goes back at least ten years.
You're way too far back in time.
Free updates only started with Windows 10. So that's 6 years since that was released.
And only on the -same- hardware from Windows 7 to 10 or from 8/8.1 to 10 (with OEM key). Windows 7 to 8/8.1 was never free.

As for free updates in W10... you still officially have to pay a new license if you buy new hardware, unless you have a retail license.
I don't do illegal or grey like re-using OEM licenses, we're not talking about that. Since most people use OEM licenses I didn't mention it like this before.
But this is still the case nowadays, not 6 years ago and certainly not ten years ago.

Updates are free on the same hardware since Windows 10, except for the update from 7 to 8 (which was before W10 so logical). So in fact, free updates are since Windows 10, not before.
Linux is always free, no matter what hardware. But it doesn't matter much, because people mostly choose Windows for a reason, just like others choose Linux for a reason. And for shared hosting, seems most choose for Linux.
 
Then I'm already thinking you either had bought a real retail version (which most people don't) or using the grey method (not really legal) in some way.
If you build a machine, you need to buy a retail version. Any other way is illegal, right? Not sure why you'd say most people don't.
Free updates only started with Windows 10. So that's 6 years since that was released.
And only on the -same- hardware from Windows 7 to 10 or from 8/8.1 to 10 (with OEM key). Windows 7 to 8/8.1 was never free.
You are absolutely wrong with this. If you have a legitimate retail version of Windows 7 Pro (which I do), the upgrade to Windows 10 Pro was free as was the upgrade to Windows 11 Pro. The only thing you can't do is run the same retail version on two machines. As long as you have the OS registered on one machine, the upgrade is free. The last time I paid for Windows was version 7 ten years ago.

Today, I run Rocky Linux on Hyper V on my Windows 11 OS as a test machine. I've tried elementary, ubuntu, mint and I always come back to Windows because as much as people complain about it I've never found a Linux distro that supports as much hardware as MS. (And this is what turned me off to Linux initially).
 
You are absolutely wrong with this.
Absolutely not. I think you misread what I wrote, you might want to read it again.
If you have a legitimate retail version of Windows 7 Pro (which I do), the upgrade to Windows 10 Pro was free as was the upgrade to Windows 11 Pro.
So exactly where am I wrong? Because this is exactly the same thing I wrote.
But the -free upgrade- option is only since Windows 10. Windows 10 was released first in 2015. So this is only since 6 years, certainly not 10 or more.
I especially wrote that things were a bit different in case of a retail license.

I've never found a Linux distro that supports as much hardware as MS
Linux distro's support hardware longer than windows. Like soundcards for example. However, this is especially what I was talking about when I said that people choose an OS for a reason.
It all depends on which hardware you want supported. For desktop, I never would choose Linux either. But in my case that is because I like playing games a lot of stuff and Linux does not have and never had gaming support.

But that's a totally different discussion then which we are talking about here. It's here not going about home pc's, but about server and hosting and that's a totally different matter and totally different choice.
 
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