Os discussion / debate

My opinion:

Start supporting both Fedora as RHES..

Fedora for the people who just want a working server with a good and not too costy controlpanel..

RHES 3.0 WS for the people who want a bit more security considering updates and support, WS isn't too expensive anyways, but will come with 5 year worth of updates


Shouldn't be too much of a hassle to make it work, since it's all very Redhat 9 oriented..
 
Wunk said:
Start supporting both Fedora as RHES..
I presume you mean "Fedora and RHES".
Fedora for the people who just want a working server with a good and not too costy controlpanel..
Supporting Fedora will require a lot of resources; it's a moving target, and if the Fedora team meets it's goals, there will be several major releases a year. Think of making the changes necessary for CR1 today, and in six months having to make changes again for CR2. Think of making changes every four to six months for a release with a total lifetime of less than a year.

I surely hope that DA doesn't fall into the trap of trying to keep DA working with a moving target such as Fedora.
RHES 3.0 WS for the people who want a bit more security considering updates and support, WS isn't too expensive anyways, but will come with 5 year worth of updates
RHES comes with a yearly subscription; you pay the full price every year of those five years. The Basic (download) version will cost $900 over those five years. If you've got 50 systems in a cabinet that's $9,000 each year.

If you want the package and/or the 24/7 Web Support and 12/5 phone support (in the US, 8/5 in the rest of the world), that's an extra $120 per year per license, $1500 over those five years, or $15,000 each year for a cabinet full of systems. (Yes, I know you can't get 50 systems in a cabinet; I'm just rounding for easy "in-my-head" math.)

And for those fees the 24/7 web support response time is two business days and the phone response time is 4 hours.

But better not get that support anyway, since it won't cover you. WS is a workstation edition; I expect they won't want to support any issues at all in a server environment.

To get the minimal server edition (ES), we're talking $350/year, $1,750 over five years; you can do the math yourself if you've got more than a few servers.

But on this you might want to pay $800/year ($4,000 over five years) since the support will cover your use as a server.
Shouldn't be too much of a hassle to make it work, since it's all very Redhat 9 oriented..
Funny you should point that out. In fact it's almost exactly RHL9. The major difference being they're promising to not change it for a few years.

Don't even think of upgrading packages yourself outside of their upgrade system, say to a later version of GD, or else the support is worthless.

Whoops... did I say that? I did. That means their five years of stability become close to worthless since the DA install will kill the important (to us hosters) RPMs RH installs and supports, and install their own, totally unsupported by RH.

Sure RHEL may give you some warm and fuzzies but do you really get any more than that for all your money? I did the research, I did the math, I spent hours on the phone with their sales reps (that happens when you have a lot of systems you're going to stop subscribing to RHN for), and I don't think so. YMMV of course.

The best solution so far appears to be either WBEL (White Box Extended Linux) compiled from RHEL source minus the copyrights and the relatively worthless support, and FreeBSD.

Consider the relative ages and maturities of the two, and what that means for continued availability of upgrades, I think FreeBSD to be the better bet.

I'll support DA on anything, but I see what I see; that's my story and I'm sticking to it :) .

Jeff
 
prophecy said:
My opinion:

Support SUSE, it seriously rocks.
The last time I seriously studied SUSE was about five years ago.

We supported multiple machines in house with our own software, and were adding systems fairly frequently.

The deal killer for SUSE was that at the time their release numbering system seemed to mean little.

We discussed this both with their technical people and their sales people, so I believe I'm correct when I say that at that time every time they ran out of CDROMs and burned a new batch they did it with the latest versions of the various packages that made up the distribution. And they didn't change the release number.

That made it impossible for us to maintain with our small staff of three; virtually every one of our servers would be running different packages.

I would hope they're no longer doing this. If they are it'd be a no-brainer for us right from the start: "No".

What's your experience on that?

Another issue I've heard recently about SUSE is that the distribution seems to overwrite various configuration files without concern for the current settings. If so, I'd hope only the gui tools would do that.

Do you have any experience with that?

Thanks.

Jeff
 
Just to mention, as much as RHEL directly from RedHat costs $900 over 5 years - plus support, there are always partners and resellers - we intend on using RHEL ES as our default OS as soon as DA, Plesk and Ensim support it, we are able to offer servers at around the same cost as what we are now with redhat 9.

Chris
 
Would you pass on more clue, Chris?

Or do you consider that a competitive advantage ;) ?

Jeff
 
Competetive advantage ;)





I cant hold it back..... ev1 - same cost monthly for RHEL as redhat 9 (plesk or ensim) and also the same as FBSD.... cant beat that now can you ;) :D

Chris
 
I hoped you had found a way to buy a license at a reasonable price; I should have known better.

I don't know how these companies can afford to buy RHEL at the prices they rent at, but here's an interesting tidbit I just got by calling their sales line:

They supply RHEL ES, the package that Red Hat sells for $349 per year.

But they don't pass on any license to use it.

To get the license and the RHN subscription (which is both the only legal way to use it and the only legal way to upgrade it) you'd have to pay RHN $349 per year.

Or at least that's what I'd have to understand based on what the EV1 representative and the RHN page tell me. I'll have to call RH in the morning to find out if there's some other way to use the EV1 install legally.

Jeff
 
EV1 have special deals with RH (same with rackspace and other large providers)

They provide a huge figure of Redhats customers and could lose redhat hundreds if not thousands of customers alternatively redhat could give a deal, keep all the current customers and get a mass more at the same time... not making as much profit but increasing the customer base in a huge way.......

Also.... ev1 now have their own mirror for up2date so all ev1 customers using RHEL get updates basically as quick as it gets - downloading on the same network :D

You get subscription, you get a legal license, you get support, you get a on-network up2date service - all for the same cost as redhat - being a non ev1 user it may not suit you, however for us it is more than perfect :)

Chris
 
I wonder why the rep I spoke to didn't tell me about the up2date server?

She said there was no support for updates.

:)

Perhaps I'll call them again after I speak to Red Hat about it tomorrow.

There are lots of reasons why I'm not an EV1 user, and frankly that could change. I've got a need for a mailserver (not for spam; rather for spam-filtering) which will use much more bandwidth than I want to pay for at my own colo's; I may decide to go with EV1 for them.

Jeff
 
I can see what your saying, and why you thinking what you are (that they are doing this illegally i assume?) although i'm sure if that was the case, someone would have taken the action and sorted it already....

EV1servers are currently serving around 20,000 servers, have a customer base of probably a little under that, and host hundreds of thousands of websites, and have been announced the largest dedicated provider in the world - them stats and figures alone allow me to believe the fact they know what they are doing, and being a customer of some time now I can honestly say customer service and support levels are not slighly affected by size they are.

Here are some links you may want to see:

Instructions for using the internal updates system (posted by Director of Web Support)
http://forum.ev1servers.net/showthread.php?threadid=39461

RedHat announcement (mentions of a contract with redhat made by headsurfer)
http://forum.ev1servers.net/showthread.php?postid=236867

Chris
 
Ok, I just have to get in here, I just upgraded a server to full 64-bit system, dual opteron, SUSE 64 bit (FREE), 64 bit mysql, 64 blackdown Java. This thing seriously rips, it processes at least 3 times faster than a single p4, 3 ghz.

And as for SUSE, since we're on the OS topic, their 64 bit version is free, Redhat, $1992 USD!!!! Can you believe that bullshit? I seriously have lost all respect for redhat and will never ever use redhat again, although i had to on another server since DA doesn't support SUSE yet.

Why does SUSE rock? Free. Awesome installer and updater, YAST. This thing even rocks from the command line and you don't have to subscribe like up2date. Install SUSE, run YAST from ssh and you get an ASCII interface to update everything on your system. Just try it once, and you'll never use redhat again, that's for sure.

What really gets me is that Redhat was the granddaddy of the open source movement. Now they are all capitalistic and it's really a sad state of affairs if you ask me.
 
Honestly.., the RHEL WS is more then enough, specially since DA comes with it's own webserver and such, all you need is a plain Redhat.., WS suffices for that


I presume you mean "Fedora and RHES".
Well, English isn't my native language, so excuse me ;), yeah, that's what I meant..


And considering Fedora..., Redhat 7.x wasn't all that different in the release scheme.., still, a lot of major controlpanels still support Redhat 7.x (HSphere, Plesk)
 
prophecy said:
Ok, I just have to get in here, I just upgraded a server to full 64-bit system, dual opteron, SUSE 64 bit (FREE), 64 bit mysql, 64 blackdown Java. This thing seriously rips, it processes at least 3 times faster than a single p4, 3 ghz.

And as for SUSE, since we're on the OS topic, their 64 bit version is free, Redhat, $1992 USD!!!! Can you believe that bullshit? I seriously have lost all respect for redhat and will never ever use redhat again, although i had to on another server since DA doesn't support SUSE yet.

Why does SUSE rock? Free. Awesome installer and updater, YAST. This thing even rocks from the command line and you don't have to subscribe like up2date. Install SUSE, run YAST from ssh and you get an ASCII interface to update everything on your system. Just try it once, and you'll never use redhat again, that's for sure.

What really gets me is that Redhat was the granddaddy of the open source movement. Now they are all capitalistic and it's really a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

However, suse has never really been used in production server (web hosting) environments, or not main stream anyway..... go to any large (ie a server provider with over 5000 servers) server provider and tell me they use suse as a main os... doubtful.

Dont forget, redhat are contributing to the fedora project aswell as having RHEL, if you want a simple OS for home etc get fedora......... I honestly believe redhat deserve credit, not as much as they are hoping although free for sofware that must have taken months to develop and matches other OS's such as windows in a similar if not better way....

Not being a big user of many other linux os's i cant really say this... however im sure RHEL is and will remain one of the most stable operating systems around, with thenew system they will have masses of funds allowing them to increase development and update steps rapidly..... i'll assume far quicker than OS.

Put yourself in their place, you have been given a base piece of code, you expand that code a huge amount, customised it silly, made it much much better overall, added a complete interface which matches that of windows XP, provide update software which continously monitors for updates based on your exact server, you provided patches and updates as they are required, you provide a system for easy installation of updates and at the end of all that you have provided an enterprise business class operating system for people who need and want it RedHat are contributing to the fedora project as I said, allowed up2date service for fedora etc.... Now tell me after all the work / services etc i mentioned above, if you were them you would remain complete free (also considering the fact of the size of their customer base and their reputation already that is)

As much as its difficult to say, in my opinion redhat is succeeding here and im sure if it continues the way it is currently other OS's will follow.... even if its a smaller jump.... I have a huge feeling if it remains successful for redhat others will follow the same direction.

Also Jeff, any information between redhat and ev1, was it illegal / legal etc..?
 
Actually, SUSE is the most popular distro in Europe.

However, suse has never really been used in production server (web hosting) environments, or not main stream anyway..... go to any large (ie a server provider with over 5000 servers) server provider and tell me they use suse as a main os... doubtful.

Agreed, everyone uses Redhat because it's still the most popular and it's what most people know. But that does not mean it's the best. And if that were the case, then we'd all be on Windows because it's the most popular OS. And you usually don't have a choice. Redhat or nothing is usually the case. But I think you'll see a lot of people starting to use SUSE in the near future. with the Europe community embracing it. I'm surprised you don't endorse it being from the UK.
 
prophecy said:
Agreed, everyone uses Redhat because it's still the most popular and it's what most people know. But that does not mean it's the best.

Nothing can really be classed as the best since its opinions and what the user requires - as mentioned redhat suits us perfectly, I honestly cant see the need for ourselves to chnage that however for you that is obviously different.

prophecy said:
And if that were the case

Windows is the most popular OS due to ease of use, however i could not bare to think how windows 95 would have handled well in a server environment.... if you were happy with 50% uptime rates due to requiring reboots every 2 hours then i guess it would be fine, I struggle to keep XP running for more than 3 days, I reboot redhat only for major updates (kernel - and where its easier such as hostname) and can get 100+ days out of it without any problems at all - again that suits us perfect - only reboot 3 /4 times a year downtime keep to a bare minimum

prophecy said:
And you usually don't have a choice. Redhat or nothing is usually the case.

Look @ other control panels - especially CP... redhat is one of many choices obviously some software is specific but you will get that with all OS's

Chris
 
Windows is the most popular OS due to ease of use, however i could not bare to think how windows 95 would have handled well in a server environment

Could you imagine.... ;-)

We used to have a Win NT server and it was an absolute nightmare. As soon as we went to Linux, all our problems ceased.
 
A little late to be getting into this discussion :p
But just thought I'd share my opinion.

I'd say go with slackware as it is very stable and has been here since the beginning.

I don't think it would be that hard to port DA to it either. I don't know how the internals of DA work, but gathering from the installation from freebsd, most of the commands appear to be native to linux.

Best part of it all, its free :D
And the support channel is very helpful most of the time.

Just my opinion.
Oh, and NO windows :eek:

-Jon-
 
ProWebUK said:
Also Jeff, any information between redhat and ev1, was it illegal / legal etc..?
I'm sorry it's taken me so long to find this thread again and respond to it.

I never meant to imply that EV1 was doing anything illegal.

What I did point out is true, that if you get a copy of RHEL you can't update it from RH withough a license to RHN, and that costs $349 per year.

Anyone can compile RHEL from source and put it onto as many systems as they want. They probably can't call it RHEL, though, at least according to evey license I've read.

And anyone can set up their own up2date server, and compile updates from source and put them there, as well.

Whether EV1 is or isn't doing anything illegal is not my concern; I have enough problems keeping up with my own licensing issues. For example, have you ever figured out what you have to pay MS if you run an MSW IIS webhosting server? (BTW, the answer is "a monthly fee"; the licenses you get with packaged MS software do NOT cover any use for commercial web access.)

Jeff
 
now that the beta version of DA for RHEL has come out, has anyone tested it on White Box Linux 3??? that would make a great os if it was any good...by the way does anyone have any feedback on it???

thanks
 
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