What is the future for Legacy DirectAdmin License holders?

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smtalk said:
I did not say that clients are dishonest. I wouldn't like to play the word game and fuel everyone's anger, so, feel free to ignore this paragraph
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will do ;)

smtalk said:
I'd appreciate a screenshot here or in PM if you have private details there
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pm sent
 
F.Y.I. - @smtalk

Statements that MariaDB could not be used after 2026 is another piece of misinformation as RHEL-like distros backport important fixes for MariaDB 10.5 and OS becomes EOL in 2032.
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☝️☝️ It may, or may not, be correct.

RHEL said MariaDB is under RHEL 8/9 Full Life Application Streams Release Life Cycle.

However, in RHEL 8, RHEL 9. Not yet sure it will backport fix or not yet. I tried to look more -
  • In RHEL 7/CentOS 7, MariaDB 5.5.68 was the last one (released on 2020-05-20), and no more update(s) between 2020-06 and now. (i.e. probably no backport fixes).
  • In RHEL 8, the latest one was Mariadb-10.3.39-1 on 2023-08-14, where official MariaDB released 10.3.39 on 2023-05-23. (At the moment, it looks no one backport fix(es) release available yet).
  • In RHEL 9/AlmaLinux 9, it runs MariaDB 10.5, which is not yet EOL-ed.

From my gut feeling, OS vendors are reluctant to backport db fix, simply encourage upgrade the versions.
 
smtalk said:
Statements that MariaDB could not be used after 2026 is another piece of misinformation
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I appreciate your comment but this is no misinformation. Mariadb 10.6 can be used, but is EOL in 2026 so in fact end of story.
And if RHEL is backporting fixes for 10.5 that is nice, but we're using 10.6. Already installed by DA.
So we also have to change then from the DA install to the OS install which will still have fixes for little time. Would DA support that too? Because at this moment the mysql and mariadb are for example excluded in yum.conf file.
It's quite normal and was also advised by DA not to use EOL stuff. And now suddenly when it fits DA's street, it isn't that bad anymore?

You know I'm not one of the people being dishonest, so what I said is true, I don't need to be dishonest, my collegue and me have external licenses.
Also it might be that the external licenses are the vast minority, but this doesn't take away promises made to us, even at a specific question from me about upgrades when things become legacy a couple of years ago.

Next to that, if there was so many abuse, which I do believe, then there could be made a split between external and internal licences, because we paid way more anyway for a license. Was not excepted by the DA team.
Also for us external holders, yes minority but that's because we mostly are little company's, it's a price raise of 180/month per license. Without a pause option, so only pay for only active licenses, for my part for a full year, maybe with re-activation fee was a good idea for us little company's.
You know I've spoken about this with Mark, and he started the feel for it, but it was refused by the rest of the owners, so must have been you and John, because fln is not a co-owner yet.

As much as I do understand that abuse of internal licenses and the lack of money DA receives, I do not understand that nothing is done for the more little company's with external license, who even got promises broken that we would keep our grades, not even that pause option is considered.
My collegue with 6 licenses and not 4 active (at this moment temporary all of them) would mean:
6x180=1080 a year raise, no matter if we use 2, 3 of 6 licenses, this will be the final cost.
And then we are even the little ones, there are people here with a lot more external licenses.

I have been thinking with Mark for some time for solutions in the ticket system as you might now. And I know it's a very difficult situation, but as to now every suggestion was too difficult or rejected by the owners.

The external license holders which paid way more for their licenses must now pay the price for a mistake DA made with the internal licenses and that is just not fair, because the "offer" can only be paid by the big company's selling servers and vps systems, for us with the enourmous competition in hosting here, we can't rais prices even more, we loose our customers to the bigger company's.
So for several of us this means crippling our business with this broken promise. And from our side it's very fair that we even are prepaired to pay a 5/month. Because that also means 360 prices raise a year for the 6 licenses, used or not used. This we could do. Some even are prepared max 100/year (which previously was asked for the pro pack). Which already would be 600/year for us.

And this is why DA should have a better look at the external licences to help the little company's. The big ones with internal licenses won't pay anything or get a cheap Plesk to set on their servers.
However with 5/month maybe some of them would consider paying that, because I doubt the large ones with internal licenses will pay 15/month ever. And the server customers will go to datacenters with cheap licenses, like the cheap Plesk VPS licenses which the big datacenter will get a lot cheaper also.

So at the end, the external license holders are kicked the hardest in the butt by DA. Minority or not, it's just not fair.

P.s. I also have experienced moments where I could not send in a ticket on my collegues licences because support period was over. So I used email and got permission to place it. But as you know I seldom send in tickets anyway.
But I just wanted to confirm that this is or was happening at a certain point. Some even stated it on the forums they couldn't send in a ticket because of the lifetime license support was over.
 
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smtalk said:
181/4 is a good number :) But you just admitted, that it's being done. I don't know why you chose this way, instead of letting DA have funds for development by having these regular type of these 4 licenses, but I won't go into details. I can just say even those 4 would have helped if every company would choose to get the right license type they need. Something small, but with thousands of customers - that would make a change. Thank you for being honest, I hope others won't be afraid to be honest as well. On how many licenses (which cannot be resold) they've resold, how many used for own purposes etc. We've been a community, but I think only honesty can make a big change here. Especially when community could see the real numbers.
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Well of course I am honest because I was told that using some for shared hosting was fine as long as I was using others for dedicated servers and VPSs. If that is incorrect then that is on DA because that is what they told me. I guess they were desperate for revenue at the time and would say anything. But it doesn't matter anymore. The trust is broken.
 
I will still use DA for shared hosting because its a better option than CPanel and Plesk. I won't be able to use it for my VPSs because the license costs more than the VPS. But now I will only trust DA as much as I do Cpanel which of course is zero. And no more telling people on forums that "DA is Great!" There is often a discussion about which is better, CPanel or DA. Now the comment will be that they are equally bad. It just doesn't matter anymore.

Not crippling DA? DA is not much good if it cannot handle the latest version of MariaDB. May as well include Apache, Exim, and Bind. If DA doesn't support those then what good is it. Nothing.

DA saw Cpanel get away with raising their prices and figures it can do the same. Maybe it will.
 
Looks like this discussion goes down the drain. Honest, dishonest, WTF.. Perhaps they had vows of Chastity in their TOS as a requirement to buy licenses, so we're already screwed. They wanted to spread their software as wide as possible, make it affordable as possible and now telling how bad we are. That's nuts. Nuts with best examples of implementing propaganda in classical/Bernays manner.
 
What is also frustrating is DA is actually working extra to EOL the lifetime license holders. If they just let it go then they would have less work. It doesn't cost them anything to simply less continue with the regular license. Now if they want to block additional feature then that I would understand because we didn't necessarily paid for those. But they are trying to bully us into paying for something we already paid for.
 
smtalk said:
I don't think DA deserves that much of misinformation. I work for DA, you could say I'm biased and this would be correct. But I own my own company MC2 for server management, and majority of shared hosting providers use DC licenses for their own uses, and it's been a "norm" for a very long time even if it was prohibited. There are some other server management companies on the forum, if they provide their own personal experience with the licence type used for own purposes by their clients - I think they'd say something similar. As MANY shared hosting companies purchased DC licenses for their own use (to share their own hosting customers), this does not meet criteria for DC license, and never did. If company has hard times because of this cheating, does NOT want to sell itself (seen many speculations on this...) and wants to prevent scam, it becomes a scammer itself? Many of MC2 customers are active forum members, I understand why they are unhappy but it was unfair to use licenses by abusing the rules. Some of them posted in the thread. Some say that it is DA's fault that they let them buy this type of license, when terms always said that this type of license should be re-sold with dedicated/VPS servers by datacenters. Yes, it has consequences for fair-users (minority, which I appreciate a lot!) and it is sad that other customers made DA to make decisions that affects them. Statements that MariaDB could not be used after 2026 is another piece of misinformation as RHEL-like distros backport important fixes for MariaDB 10.5 and OS becomes EOL in 2032. It is true that this change affects some people who did not cheat with DC-type licenses, or customers who had external life-time licenses, but I've seen no true recommendations on how to make these companies switch to the license type they should've used for the purpose they use DA for. I'd just recommend everyone to be honest in the thread, and those who have really violated the terms - admit that and propose what to do next, so that you could continue using DA legally.
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I don't think it's fair to treat the "little guys" and the "big companies" the same, regardless of who cheated. Personally I didn't even know cheating was possible - my 1-server LL is locked by it's IP address.
I purchased an LL because I dislike being milked each month and I actively avoid being placed in such situations.
You offered, I purchased. Simple as that.

We (as in - the little guys) cannot compete with the big companies, nor do we try.

Speaking for myself I host DA at my home server (feel free to check the IP address if you'd like) with ~20-25 personal and friends sites. No profit whatsoever, DA's role is just for pure convenience - example - 2 clicks - mail account ready.

Now tell me your opinion - do you think I'd pay anything on a monthly basis to host my own stuff on my own server?

Limiting LLHs, in effect forcing them to a monthly subscription - instead of trying to work something out is total madness in my eyes. A moneygrab plain and simple and I would not stand for it. Not one bit.

Here's something that I previously expressed:
I believe @beansbaxter said it best here: https://forum.directadmin.com/threa...dmin-license-holders.69159/page-3#post-366429 that's acceptable, not the proposed moneygrab "special one-time only for LLHs" BS.

That would be the only option I (and I bet - a lot of other LLHs) could/would agree on.

And fix your licensing checks / locks / whatever you use so such cheating is not possible in the future (because you allowed it to occur - your developers did not think of all the possible ways a system could/would be abused and that really isn't our fault, its your own).

Twisting the arms of your most loyal customers, those who gave you a lot of money to develop both your business and your software is not a good thing. Hope you realize that sooner rather than later.
 
I have been keeping an eye on this post for some time and the fact that it is finally generating activity means that more and more owners know what the consequences are for the LLH.
If I understand correctly, the license for LLH is usable as long as MariaDB 10.6 is not a security risk and supported by the software being hosted.
After that, the license is legally usable but practical worthless.

Directadmin is the first choice if you want a good product based on price & performance.
The disadvantage is the style learning curve, I think that is the reason why many choose cpanel or plesk. So you have to be a little bit of a fan of directadmin to put the extra energy into it.

And now? almost everyone understands that lifetime licenses do not last forever. Will there be a proposal to pay for the updates?
For me the offer of 15 euros per month is not interesting with a maximum of 7 sites on a VPS, of which I rent 3.
The backup of the personal is not usable for me. All users are crammed into one backup, which makes restoring one site not an easy job. with my current license I can backup and restore a site per user.
A free panel? I have tested several and there are a few contenders like Ispconfig, keyweb, HestiaCP, Webmin etc

I expect that the current License will be usable for another 1.5 years under the current circumstances, after which I, like many others, will have to make a choice.
There will probably be a post about that in time.
 
floyd said:
Has anybody tried https://sentora.org/
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I did in the past, it was before Zpanel after some internal problems new team has forked as Sentora, an its an beautiful panel but:
1.It is an small team so dont expect fast response, forum is still active
2.updating core programs like php and mysql is not easy
3. as far i know multiple php is not possible
4. some people had claimed that there are some security issues
5. really like the GUI and its easy !
 
Upgrades are upgrades, .
Not really off course. An update is not an upgrade. But let's not start that discussion.

Not getting a upgrade from 10.x to 11.x is understandable. But 10.x to the latest 10.11.x should not matter and could be seen as "update".

The answer of DirectAdmin saying that legacy would not work on 10.11 is hard to believe. As MariaDB is always backwards compatible between versions within the major version. So 10.5 to 10.11 would work normal with 10.5 setup.

MariaDB says:
  • All MariaDB table data files are backward compatible
  • The MariaDB connection protocol is backward compatible. You don't normally need to upgrade any of your old clients to be able to connect to a newer MariaDB version.
  • The MariaDB replica can be of any newer version than the primary.

    MariaDB Corporation regularly runs tests to check that one can upgrade from MariaDB 5.5 to the latest MariaDB version without any trouble. All older versions should work too (as long as the storage engines you were using are still around).
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DirectAdmin says:
All other license types are considered legacy because they are no longer available for sale. These products will be maintained separately under a legacy codebase.
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And also:
Servers using legacy products can seamlessly upgrade to the unified codebase by applying a new license key.
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Do the legacy holders really have a "separate codebase" or just a version within the unified codebase. I am wandering as the binary files are the same on a new-license en a legacy-license. (as i have both). Well it seems to me when I do a quick check with a readelf for example.
Also package name used is the same if I check the DA version.

If it was a seperate codebase than it would be really separate. And can MaraiDB used backwards. If they do have unified base then it still would be possible to use MariaDB as they use same base and it would be simple to let legacy users do an update/upgrade within the major version.
 
If I buy a car and the dealer says free Michelin tires for life, if Michelin stops making tires then I can't really blame the dealer for that. But as long as Michelin makes tires I can expect to get free Michelin tires from the deal.

DA essentially said that if I buy a lifetime license I can continue to use DA for as long as MariaDB exists. But now they are saying "until MariaDB gets to version x." Now if production on MariaDB stopped then I can't really blame DA for that. But that is not what happened.
 
floyd said:
If I buy a car and the dealer says free Michelin tires for life, if Michelin stops making tires then I can't really blame the dealer for that. But as long as Michelin makes tires I can expect to get free Michelin tires from the deal.
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That would be a damn good deal. Especially when you need OE tires. But there's a difference - tires cost to produce.

floyd said:
DA essentially said that if I buy a lifetime license I can continue to use DA for as long as MariaDB exists. But now they are saying "until MariaDB gets to version x." Now if production on MariaDB stopped then I can't really blame DA for that. But that is not what happened.
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I think we all understand, that this is not about honesty, us or MariaDB.
 
ericc said:
that this is not about honesty,
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It is too. One of the biggest problem is too little revenue, mostly caused because internal licenses are sold illegaly. Meaning not in a datacenter by a datacenter of a host renting servers/vps but lifetime licenses sold by others to private people or to hosts using them in various datacenter and not in 1 as in the agreement. The dishonestly is in fact only with internal licenses (ofcourse good company's excluded).

Hosts which bought them (maybe from hosts stopped or datacentes who have to many) which don't even sell/rent vps systems or servers.
I do understand like some others, that lifetime can't be kept up this way, and we undestand the difficult situation DA is in.
But if we, who in fact shouldn't pay anymore lifetime, should start to pay, it should be just the way it's now. With non payment for licenses not used. Or maybe a yearlee fee (not being 180/license) or something.
We like to keep DA alive as external license holders but not at all costs.
However, since most and biggest internal license holders don't care or don't want to pay anything or maybe 50 cents, mostly we external license holders and the honest internal license holders, are now paying the price too for the license abuse and the lack of income required.
There should be another solution for this.

Stije said:
The answer of DirectAdmin saying that legacy would not work on 10.11 is hard to believe.
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It can work, but it will not work out of the box, if I read @fln's answer correctly. It's the integration which can cause issues at a certain point, which is confirmed by somebody in the thread who tried and was glad he was helpt getting things back to 10.6. This is why it's block within Directadmin, not because MariaDB 10.11 wouldn't run. It's just extra work to make the integration to the legacy codebase if I understood correctly.
Extra work costs time and time=money.

However, why ony punishing the lifetime holders? DA didn't made a price raise in at least 15 years. Competition of other panels is killing, but maybe a 1 or 2/month price raise on all licenses, maybe everybody is happy then? I don't know.
I like to think with them to find a solution, but the current existing option is not fair enough imho. Certainly not to external license holders, which already payed more anyway per license.
 
ericc said:
That would be a damn good deal. Especially when you need OE tires. But there's a difference - tires cost to produce.
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No difference. It cost to produce MariaDB. They give it away for free but it still costs something if nothing else time and energy.
 
floyd said:
No difference. It cost to produce MariaDB. They give it away for free but it still costs something if nothing else time and energy.
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I was talking about DA. As was said - it is as good as free software it supports.

@Richard G, let me clarify - do we need to create a business plan for DA to not take away our lifetime licenses? Don't you feel we are crossing the line from blackmail to idiocy here?
 
ericc said:
Don't you feel we are crossing the line from blackmail to idiocy here?
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You're taking it too far. Lets make some comparison.
Did you think you still get free lifetime upgrades from a Plesk or cPanel lifetime license? Which were way more expensive when bought to begin with.
Do you know the re-activation fee of a lifetime license from Plesk for example?
It's no blackmail, you still can use the license and there is an upgrade offer, too expensive but still.

Would you rather have them to declare the lifetime licenses end of life like vBulletin did with their 3.x licenses? Possible too, no need for any discount on normal licenses either.
Now think again.

I agree we shouldn't have to pay. But I'd rather pay a little with a lot of people or help finding a solution not to pay (or as little as possible) than not being able to use the license anymore in 2 years because of an EOL.
Is that such an idiotic thought?
 
I think it is pointless to discuss the MariaDB issue, as it is just a pretext to cripple the Lifetime Licences so that poeple switch to another model..
Propack was the first attempt to draw conversion from Legacy to "money-machine" but was probably not efficient enough so they merged it all.
If not for MariaDB it would have been for PHP9 or Apache3 or anything that comes next.

DA Sales was clear on the first page :

If absolute certainty is required, then our official legacy codebase explanation from over a year ago is what you should adhere to (basically, that there are no guarantees). You'd just have to assume the worst to achieve that certainty/stability.
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aka : we will kill the legacy stuff slowly but steadily, switch to a recurrent licence.

I think our time would better be invested in proposing pricng schemes that would be acceptable for both parties.
It is in everyone's interest that DA makes enough money to grow and support the product. (and if at some point they get as many Ferrari's as John Carmack, and keep their legacy customers happy, good for them)

I would personally prefer to read 200 pricing scheme proposals ( and have feedback from DA management as to what is not going to make it for them) than 30 pages of hypocrisy/silence from DA and rant from customers.

I am really not convinced that the current pricing model and situation is optimal :
-too expensive to start with
-doesn't allow hosters / datacenters to make a living out of the product by proposing it to their customers. (if a datacenters unlock the 40% discount rate, he will need to propose at least a 30% reduction to his customers to convince them).
-kills the net promoter score from all LLH holders that used to recommed DA on various forums and to their own customers.

I am also surprised that there is no feedback here from very big licence providers that bundle DA with their services.
(we are a small fish with 150 LL, we have seen feedback from Floyd with 180 LL, I guess there are companies with 1000's of licences, what is their plan / position ?
I also noticed that some big players like OVH have stopped proposing DirectAdmin licences with their servers.)
 
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